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post #71 of 564 (permalink) Old 01-07-2006, 07:56 PM
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I have the Pirelli P Zero 225/45/17's my michellin's were 250 a pop and I got these for 140 each and they are amazing!

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post #72 of 564 (permalink) Old 01-09-2006, 09:43 AM
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You would
[/b]
I'm not specifically referencing Toyo here. I disagree with the statement that all manufacturers make good and bad tires. That's a pretty broad statement and it's not true. Plus, define "bad" in this regard. Are we talking about tires that have failed due to some manufacturing defect? In that case, then all manufacturers can be included for all of the lines they make. But the adjustment rate average for the industry is less than 1/10th of 1%. So, just because a manufacturer has a few tires that didn't hold up for some reason, is it reasonable to call the whole line bad? Every car manufacturer has cars that have defects or problems. Are they ALL bad, or is that a normal and reasonable expectation in manufacturing?

Or is the definition of bad more to do with the way the tire performs? A lot of people don't like the stock Michelins because of their performance in the snow or because they are not aggressive enough. That doesn't make it a bad tire. The tire does well what it was designed to do and that is deliver a smooth, quiet ride, reasonable grip for most conditions and gives good tread life. I don't think I've seen a post yet about these tires separating. If a tire does not meet your expectations of performance, then I wouldn't say it's a "bad" tire, perhaps it's a misapplication.

My definition of a "bad" tire is a line that does not live up to its intended application, or a tire that has a high rate of adjustment. This is a rare occurence, given the amount of research and testing done before a tire ever hits the market and the amount of specialized testing equipment all the major manufacturers employ. Very few manufacturers, especially the majors, IMO, have truly "bad" tires anymore.

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post #73 of 564 (permalink) Old 01-09-2006, 10:08 AM
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I&#39;m not specifically referencing Toyo here. I disagree with the statement that all manufacturers make good and bad tires. That&#39;s a pretty broad statement and it&#39;s not true. Plus, define "bad" in this regard. Are we talking about tires that have failed due to some manufacturing defect? In that case, then all manufacturers can be included for all of the lines they make. But the adjustment rate average for the industry is less than 1/10th of 1%. So, just because a manufacturer has a few tires that didn&#39;t hold up for some reason, is it reasonable to call the whole line bad? Every car manufacturer has cars that have defects or problems. Are they ALL bad, or is that a normal and reasonable expectation in manufacturing?

Or is the definition of bad more to do with the way the tire performs? A lot of people don&#39;t like the stock Michelins because of their performance in the snow or because they are not aggressive enough. That doesn&#39;t make it a bad tire. The tire does well what it was designed to do and that is deliver a smooth, quiet ride, reasonable grip for most conditions and gives good tread life. I don&#39;t think I&#39;ve seen a post yet about these tires separating. If a tire does not meet your expectations of performance, then I wouldn&#39;t say it&#39;s a "bad" tire, perhaps it&#39;s a misapplication.

My definition of a "bad" tire is a line that does not live up to its intended application, or a tire that has a high rate of adjustment. This is a rare occurence, given the amount of research and testing done before a tire ever hits the market and the amount of specialized testing equipment all the major manufacturers employ. Very few manufacturers, especially the majors, IMO, have truly "bad" tires anymore.
[/b]
Let me clarify my original statement as I dont think I went into enough detail of what I meant. I was referring to peoples posts about tires. Guy A might come in and say I have Yokohamas, they are crappy tires. Well he doesnt tell you WHAT tire he is running. He might be running an ES max performance summer tire in Michigan in December..... so to him, the tires are bad. Guy B might come in and say he is running Michelin Pilot&#39;s and he thinks they are a great all-season tire. However we dont know if he is running Pilot A/S or the Pilot HXMX or whatever we have on our cars. Guy C might come in and say I have Kumho&#39;s and they were horrible and they wore bald on me after 35,000 miles compared to my Bridgestones. Well, since he didnt post what model he was using, they might have been designed to be a very soft and comfortable tire with no road noise that wasnt designed as a high mileage tire. His Bridgestones might have been a hard tire designed for 60,000 miles.

I was referring to the usefullness of this thread and people telling you that their tires are good or bad. As you already know, having a reviewer say a tire is good or bad greatly depends on not the tire brand, but on the tire model and if it is being used properly for how it was designed to be used.

Therefore based on PEOPLES reviews, all tire companies make "good" and "bad" tires but that doesnt necessarily mean the actual tires are good or bad. Like you said before, every person has different expectations when it comes to tires.

I hope that clarifies up my post..... I thought it was clear what I meant but you might have taken what I said differently......

I added "based on peoples reviews" to clear up what I was trying to get at.......


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post #74 of 564 (permalink) Old 01-09-2006, 11:15 AM
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Excellent! Thank you for the clarification, as it more clearly states what you mean!

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post #75 of 564 (permalink) Old 01-09-2006, 01:08 PM
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My definition of a "bad" tire is a line that does not live up to its intended application, or a tire that has a high rate of adjustment.
[/b]
I would certainly say our stock 17" Michelins qualify as a bad tire under this definition. They are absolutely wretched at everything except holding air. The first zero season radial tire.

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post #76 of 564 (permalink) Old 01-09-2006, 01:43 PM
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I would certainly say our stock 17" Michelins qualify as a bad tire under this definition. They are absolutely wretched at everything except holding air. The first zero season radial tire.
[/b]
Agreed.

Stock Michelin Pilot HX
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?ti...l=Pilot+HX+MXM4

Worst....tire....ever.

However Michelin Pilot Sport A/S
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?ti...lot+Sport+A%2FS

One of the "better" all-season tires.

Both tires made by Michelin... both called Michelin Pilot.....different models.....Just another reason why people should actually post what MODEL they have.


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post #77 of 564 (permalink) Old 01-11-2006, 11:08 PM
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Well, the other day I got a flat tire and decided, "What a great opportunity to upgrade". After a little research on 6club and some googling, I got a set of Toyo Proxes4 225/45Z. I have the stock 17" rims on my &#39;04 Hatch.

The difference between the Proxes4 and OE Michelins (with 27K on them) is like night and day. These Proxes4s rock.

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Mods (finally): Toyo T1R, Carbotech Panther+ (front) Bobcat (rear), CP-E Engine Mount, RB springs and sway bars, Bilstein shocks, Synthetic trans fluid and Motor oil

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post #78 of 564 (permalink) Old 01-11-2006, 11:16 PM
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Thanks!

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post #79 of 564 (permalink) Old 01-12-2006, 09:20 PM
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I&#39;ve got Toyo T1-S&#39;s on my stock 17&#39;s with 225/45/17 size for the summer and Bridgestone Blizzak WS-50 snow tires on Mazda 3 16" wheels for the winter.

I would recommend both.
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post #80 of 564 (permalink) Old 01-20-2006, 08:15 PM
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I decided to try out the Avon Tech M550&#39;s on my new 18" ASA AR1 wheels. So far they are quite good for an all season tire, especially for the price.

No matter where you go, I&#39;ll be zoomnbyu!

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