What can I do remove this rust? - Mazda 6 Forums : Mazda 6 Forum / Mazda Atenza Forum
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post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-04-2018, 06:50 PM Thread Starter
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What can I do remove this rust?

The mazda is covered by panels, which protects the undercarriage, but the area where the control arms and exhaust is, is exposed. As you can see in the pics, my surface rust is mostly on the right control arm, the exhaust, and the connector that connects the mid pipe with the exhaust.

Exhaust is no problem as this can be replaced with aftermarket, even the mid pipe can be replaced.

What can I use to remove this. I suppose a grinder and some rust removal chemical. My concern is using any of these rust converters and possibly causing more harm than good like the rubberized undercoating shit.

I applied some w40 and it helped a little, it looks a little better than these pics.

I know a place than rents a garage and lift. I figured I could take it there and do my own work to remove it. I'm looking to remove it. I don't trust this "rust converters"

No such thing as "converting " rust. You can use various chemicals to turn it black or purple even pink but it is still rust living in the metal . You can cover it up with any of the wonder snake oils but it is just covered.

If it was that wonderful you would see high end restoration shops swearing about it instead of swearing at it







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post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-04-2018, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Mazda6Suspension View Post
No such thing as "converting " rust.


You're not going to like this answer, but yes--you can convert rust. Rust is just a chemical reaction. Certain chemicals change rust into a different chemical.



VHT makes a rust convertor that works well in my opinion:






Get a can of this and a rust removal wheel for a handheld drill. Take an hour and remove all the rust you can, and then follow the directions on the back of the VHT can. It works just fine.

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post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-04-2018, 09:39 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MazdaMetalhead View Post
You're not going to like this answer, but yes--you can convert rust. Rust is just a chemical reaction. Certain chemicals change rust into a different chemical.



VHT makes a rust convertor that works well in my opinion:


https://www.amazon.com/VHT-SP229-Rus.../dp/B002NUABUO


Get a can of this and a rust removal wheel for a handheld drill. Take an hour and remove all the rust you can, and then follow the directions on the back of the VHT can. It works just fine.

That product you recommend is the same as the rustoleon rust reformer. Goes on clear and then turns black. Except, it is actually a film that sits on top of the rust. It doesn't actually "change" the rust. How do I know this? Because I've used it on some rust metal before, it turns into a film, if you scrape, there it is the freaking rust behind it.


It isn't a "converter". It doesn't convert anything, otherwise, why does it turn into a black film. Why when I remove it, I can still see the rust behind it. All these converters are actually encapsulators.



This one has good reviews but is similar, a coating





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post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-04-2018, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazda6Suspension View Post
That product you recommend is the same as the rustoleon rust reformer. Goes on clear and then turns black. Except, it is actually a film that sits on top of the rust. It doesn't actually "change" the rust. How do I know this? Because I've used it on some rust metal before, it turns into a film, if you scrape, there it is the freaking rust behind it.


It isn't a "converter". It doesn't convert anything, otherwise, why does it turn into a black film. Why when I remove it, I can still see the rust behind it. All these converters are actually encapsulators.



This one has good reviews but is similar, a coating



https://www.amazon.com/Ospho-605-Met...keywords=ospho
Then use that one, it looks fine. Whatever you use it's the same process: get off the bulk of the rust and spray it with something to keep it from coming back.

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post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-05-2018, 08:24 AM
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Phosphoric acid will convert iron oxide (rust) into iron phosphate (a black metallic substance.) It is what is commonly in "rust converters." However, that doesn't repair the structural integrity damage. It does, however, inhibit future rust behind the iron phosphate, so long as it is not scraped or otherwise removed. It also is a suitable substrate for an overcoat with a cold-galvanizing compound (zinc-based spraypaint or similar.)

If you have surface rust (NOT structural damage -- heavy pitting or bubbling of the metal is serious as it has compromised the strength) then phosphoric acid (available at Home Depot and similar; it's called "Phospho") can be applied to the rust to stop the continuing rot followed by spraying with cold galv (in a rattle can.) It won't last forever but it certainly does work. Just don't paint over the cold galv; if you use it you're stuck with the "gun-metal gray" appearance of the zinc compound.
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post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-05-2018, 07:06 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tickerguy View Post
Phosphoric acid will convert iron oxide (rust) into iron phosphate (a black metallic substance.) It is what is commonly in "rust converters." However, that doesn't repair the structural integrity damage. It does, however, inhibit future rust behind the iron phosphate, so long as it is not scraped or otherwise removed. It also is a suitable substrate for an overcoat with a cold-galvanizing compound (zinc-based spraypaint or similar.)

If you have surface rust (NOT structural damage -- heavy pitting or bubbling of the metal is serious as it has compromised the strength) then phosphoric acid (available at Home Depot and similar; it's called "Phospho") can be applied to the rust to stop the continuing rot followed by spraying with cold galv (in a rattle can.) It won't last forever but it certainly does work. Just don't paint over the cold galv; if you use it you're stuck with the "gun-metal gray" appearance of the zinc compound.

would using a grinder or brush that attaches to a drill remove all that rust? probably not


What's the difference between rust converter and rubberized undercoating then?


The undercoating basically seal the rust which may do more harm than good.
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post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-05-2018, 07:37 PM
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A lot.

Phosphoric acid results in what is called a "Parkerized" finish. It's what most gun barrels are finished with among other things. It's quite resistant to rust on its own, but nowhere near what galvanizing does.

Using cold galv over it results in more protection than Parkerization alone. Galvanizing works because zinc is more electro-negative than steel, so it corrodes first. This is the same reason you use zincs on a boat to protect the rudders and shafts; they corrode in preference to the other metals since they are more electro-negative than the other metals.

Neither will restore the structural strength already lost to corrosion; that's permanent.
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post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-05-2018, 08:14 PM
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I thought parkerized, nitrided, and carburized are all similar.... meaning surface hardening of steel. Alfa crankshafts are nitrided for better wear resistance.????

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post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-05-2018, 09:44 PM
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Nope.

Nitriding and carburizing are case-hardening procedures, both of which use heat; they are distinguished by using nitrogen in the first case instead of carbon. The reason to case-harden is that harder steels are more-brittle; you thus get the surface wear/scratch resistance you want at the outside surface without materially reducing the toughness of the whole piece.

Parkerizing is a chemical conversion (using phosphoric acid, typically) of the surface layer for corrosion resistance and is unrelated.
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post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-05-2018, 10:17 PM
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Rust is a challenge.
What has worked for me on my Landcruiser and 240Z was to wire wheel the surface down. If I can get bare metal that is basically a sure thing. Clean with solvent and prime and paint (or non-rubberized undercoat).


If I cannot get bare metal I brush and sand/file to get as much as possible and then use a converter. After that I solvent and prime/paint.


Rust needs Oxygen (and water), without it all reactions stop. That's why we paint. If you are covering rust and cant get it all off the "flakes" will cause microscopic cracks in the paint under stress and flex and this will introduce oxygen. With the O2, rust will begin again.



Your parts will absolutely clean up with a wire brush on a drill, the rust is very superficial.


Good luck.


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