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post #51 of 73 (permalink) Old 05-11-2005, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by crossbow@May 11 2005, 10:31 AM
I think you just ruined all your further arguments on this forum with that statement.
Since the PCM actually throws check engine lights if you throttle on the car before its warmed up, I'd agree.* BMW feels that allowing a car to properly warm up is so important, they build a variable redline into the M3 to prevent idiots from damaging the car.* Sitting there and letting it idle isn't good, but you shouldn't start the car and immediately go flying down the street at WOT.

Here's a shot of the variable redline.

The yellow turns to red when you first start the car, and turns back to yellow as the vehicle warms up and the oil and coolant reach operating temps.


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20 seconds to 2 minutes would be normal warmup just ot get going, but not waiting will do no harm to your engine. The engine running is the engine running, and it makes no difference if you are moving or not. The Mazda 6 manual says no warm-up (as in a method to save fuel). Please explain the difference in the engine running with the car moving, as opposed to the engine running at a standstill.

I don't see where any further arguement is ruined at all with my absolutly correct statement. Your statement is completely nebulous, and does not assert any facts whatsoever.

Maybe you should educate youself of lapping compounds, polishing compounds, strengths of materials, and the rockwell scale. There is no emperical data whatsoever that shows that changing your oil per manufacturers recommended specifications causes any inordinate detrimental wear to your engine.

I mean no insult or injury to anyone. Just stating facts.
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post #52 of 73 (permalink) Old 05-11-2005, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MowerMan+May 11 2005, 11:21 AM-->
Quote:
Please explain the difference in the engine running with the car moving, as opposed to the engine running at a standstill.
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[/b]
Duh, when the car is moving, the engine usually is running at different revs, depending on the throttle and gearing (unless you just throw it in gear and let the motor pull you at <1 MPH. Takes a while getting anywhere that way...) When it&#39;s at standstill, the engine is IDLING, usually at a constant, LOW RPM (unless you decide to tap the accelerator).
<!--QuoteBegin-MowerMan
@May 11 2005, 11:21 AM
I mean no insult or injury to anyone.* Just stating facts.
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So am I.


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post #53 of 73 (permalink) Old 05-11-2005, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MowerMan@May 11 2005, 03:21 PM
I don&#39;t see where any further arguement is ruined at all with my absolutly correct statement.* Your statement is completely nebulous, and does not assert any facts whatsoever.

Maybe you should educate youself of lapping compounds, polishing compounds, strengths of materials, and the rockwell scale. There is no emperical data whatsoever that shows that changing your oil per manufacturers recommended specifications causes any inordinate detrimental wear to your engine.
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Wow, you aren&#39;t making friends with a statement like that.

I consider Crossbow as one of the &#39;tech&#39; guru of this forum. And I don&#39;t think it&#39;s nice for you to post something like that especially for a newbie. Just my take on it.

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post #54 of 73 (permalink) Old 05-11-2005, 11:51 AM
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I don&#39;t care about UOA as it means absolutely nothing. If the particles are small enough to get through the filter, then they will not do any damage whatsoever to an engine.
Those who want to learn can visit
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com
and formulate your own opinions.

Just because evidence counters your thoughts or beliefs doesn&#39;t mean its wrong, it just means your not looking at the whole picture.





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post #55 of 73 (permalink) Old 05-11-2005, 11:54 AM
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Offtopic - By the way, I love that M3 cockpit!

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post #56 of 73 (permalink) Old 05-11-2005, 12:29 PM
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Well, I actually did want to make friends here, but I won&#39;t compromise facts for anybody.

What is in question here, is whether changing you oil at 1000 miles makes a difference in lifespan or performance of the engine. It most certainly does not. I don&#39;t care about UOA or what some "oil guy" says. That does nothing to prove the assertion that changing oil at 1000 miles does anything beneficial (I changed mine at 4500 miles).

The rings an cylinder walls are the hardest materials in the engine. No "cause and effect" relationship has ever been established that waiting to change your oil at 5000 miles causes any undue wear to any parts in the engine, especially rings and cylinder walls.

I may be a "newbie" here, but I can already see that it&#39;s not a very welcoming place unless you play "fanboy".

Show me some emperical data, with direct cause and effect releationships, and then I may buy into your theory. Just calling me "uneducated" is hardly any way to boulster a debate.

Waiting to start out with a cold engine has more to do with initializing the fuel system, than it has anything to do with lubrication. That is what would cause "hesitation".

BTW the BWM cockpit is nice, but also does nothing to boulster a debating position.
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post #57 of 73 (permalink) Old 05-11-2005, 01:09 PM
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You have the evidence, you just need to read it.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com





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post #58 of 73 (permalink) Old 05-11-2005, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by crossbow@May 11 2005, 01:09 PM
You have the evidence, you just need to read it.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com
[snapback]409368[/snapback]
Hmnmm... Looking at that site, I see nothing I can consider as "evidence" that any harm is caused to an engine by waiting to change the oil per manufacturers recommended specifications. I may have just missed it, so if there is some real emperical data there, then you should point to it specifically.

"Evidence" not emperical data. To prove your point by using scientific methodology (experimentation), you would have to take two identical engines, running them under controlled conditions, in one of them changing the oil at 1000 miles, and then compare and contrast the wear on the engine parts between the two engines. Then you would have to repeat the experiment a number of times to average out any small manufacturing differences in the engines. That is how one would collect true "emperical data".

My contention is that there would be no significant difference in wear between the two engines at 5000 miles, or even at 205,000 miles under controlled conditions.

Crossbow, I hope this difference in opinion does not make it impossible for us to be friends. Without any doubt, you are a wealth of knowledge concerning these vehicles (I&#39;ve read a bunch of your other posts).
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post #59 of 73 (permalink) Old 05-11-2005, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MowerMan@May 11 2005, 05:33 PM
My contention is that there would be no significant difference in wear between the two engines at 5000 miles, or even at 205,000 miles under controlled conditions.
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Get your own conclusions:

Post 1

Post 2

Post 3

Post 4

And many more...

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post #60 of 73 (permalink) Old 05-11-2005, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jax6S@May 11 2005, 07:01 PM
Get your own conclusions:

Post 1

Post 2

Post 3

Post 4

And many more...
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The conclusion would be... There is not one bit of emperical data there. Show me pictures of 100 oil pans for every model of car in production after 1000 miles (or whatever it was). That is the only thing there that comes close to any kind of real data, and the sample population if far too small to be conclusive in any way.

Not only that, debris in the oil pan means little (at least for further damage, but it probably indicates past damage). The oil pan is the last place the oil resides, anf oil goes through the filter before it get to any other parts of the engine. Any particulate matter that makes it past the oil filter is either...

1) Too small to cause any undue wear.

or

2) Too soft to cause any undue wear

or

3) All of the above

Opinions and anecdotes have nothing to do with science.

Changing your oil at 1000mi or 100mi or every 50 miles certainly doesn&#39;t hurt (well maybe your pocketbook), but it also buys you nothing (well maybe some personal satisfaction).

Hey, whatever blows your skirt up!
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