2.5G power potential - Mazda 6 Forums : Mazda 6 Forum / Mazda Atenza Forum
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post #1 of 239 (permalink) Old 06-27-2014, 08:10 AM Thread Starter
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2.5G power potential

This discussion seems to keep getting hashed up in other places. What say you all? We've started seeing parts coming along but nothing really noteworthy. Tunes seem to have good potential, but the ball keeps getting dropped. How about something a member here can easily do with funds.

Meth injection for a NA car that loves to run on the edge! The benefit is not as pronounced, but we're talking significantly cooled IAT's with a bit more punch to the fuel.

E85 fuel, is our engine/fueling system even compatible? Has anyone tried it? This one will sacrifice MPG a bit as well if possible. But, several here seem quite happy to give up a couple MPG to get closer to an actual 200HP.

Let's see some new info and have a nice lively discussion without dirtying up product threads. hopefully all the leaving out the intake/axle-back stuff.. it's a dead horse, LOL (unless you have proof positive with quantitative results).

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post #2 of 239 (permalink) Old 06-27-2014, 10:01 AM
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switching to e85 or meth on its own will not gain you power. people use meth or e85 for cooling to allow for higher timing advance to gain power. That would require tuning, which obviously has not been unlocked yet.

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post #3 of 239 (permalink) Old 06-27-2014, 11:28 AM
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First - Thanks for starting this in an alternate thread.

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Originally Posted by 6Y MAZDA View Post
switching to e85 or meth on its own will not gain you power. people use meth or e85 for cooling to allow for higher timing advance to gain power. That would require tuning, which obviously has not been unlocked yet.
Agreed with Hector. I switch to higher octane Shell to clean out my system once every 6 months or so. The added nitrogen doesn't hurt the car, and I'm trying to find out if it helps over time.

The V6 used to CRAVE higher octane and I definitely felt a gain in performance, but it was only a butt dyno so who knows.

These skyactive engines, like @tickerguy was saying, aren't going to respond to higher octane like some people seem to think they will.

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post #4 of 239 (permalink) Old 06-27-2014, 11:54 AM Thread Starter
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You're welcome byakuya, it's been long overdue - my apologies for feeding along also in other threads.

That's what I'm interested to see about the E85/meth options. Since part of the skyactiv suite means the ECU is running the engine up as close as it can to max timing without causing detonation, it's hard to know without really trying.

I'm quite sure once the tuning is out there we have a ton of potential, but the thought process here was to bring temperature down and allow the ecu to possibly add more timing and extract more power. With a colder charge of air you may get even 1-2* more advance. It's not a lot, but it can make just enough of a difference IF the ECU would allow for it. (same for E85 and meth^).

In general people tend to under-estimate what the ECU of a car is capable of adapting to. It's rarely optimal, but the LTFT and STFT are capable of dialing up and down the fuel flow quite a lot in other cars. I'm not sure if the fuel trims learn in this car, or if fuel is somewhat static and it's the timing and valve events that change. It's quite the technical little thing either way :P. As an example, with 10 year older tech my car adapted to a cam with 5* of cam advance, 36* of overlap duration, and MUCH MUCH higher volume flowing heads.. and it was only a little rich, mostly due to the reverb from the open headers causing the o2's to pick up "lean" outside air


And any other thoughts on power gain options are MORE than welcome here. That is entirely what this thread is for . hand ported throttle body perhaps? I honestly don't even know what the TB port on our car looks like! (shame on me right? I know my other car's engine from oil pan to air filter, LOL!)

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post #5 of 239 (permalink) Old 06-27-2014, 11:57 AM
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Fuel trims definitely learn (a lot) in this ECU.

The question is where the limits on the fuel and timing (most-particularly VALVE timing) maps are in the ECU. I've yet to see an automotive ECU that is fully-dynamic; ALL of them select a map table in effect and then scale to some degree from that. That's bullshit given the processing and sensor capabilities we have, but it's how they ALL work.

Give me a few million in R&D and I would change that BIG.... hell, a retrofit is potentially possible (but very illegal for street use unless you went through the entire certification nonsense; thank the EPA for that horsecrap.)

If you're serious about this the first place to start in exploring those limits with the stock ECU would be to find some 100UL (hard stuff to find, but not impossible) -- Sunoco and a few others make it. The major refiners all WILL within a couple more years as a replacement for 100LL Avgas, which will make it easily-available.

Pull a dyno on RUG with the tank nearly empty then fill with 100 UL and pull another one after driving for ~50 miles or so to allow the ECU to adapt and see what you get.

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post #6 of 239 (permalink) Old 06-27-2014, 12:56 PM
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I think tickerguy brough up a decent potential option for some people in another thread: find the part number for the head gasket on the european M6s and swap, then the tricky part of getting the European ECU flash and walla 14:1 compression ratio, 189hp some other torque and better fuel economy and total stock, albeit for a different country and running 91 octane minimum.

Regarding proof of power improvement potential with the intake and exhaust, I'll post what I've consolidated over time on that hopefully sometime this weekend. There will never be proof to the skeptic, by I will consolidate a lot of supporting evidence that is floating around out there.


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post #7 of 239 (permalink) Old 06-27-2014, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
There will never be proof to the skeptic
Yes there is; pull a dyno, change ONE THING, pull a second on on the SAME tank of fuel with correction for difference in ambient temperature (if any) between the two runs.

That's called "science."
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post #8 of 239 (permalink) Old 06-27-2014, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tickerguy View Post
Yes there is; pull a dyno, change ONE THING, pull a second on on the SAME tank of fuel with correction for difference in ambient temperature (if any) between the two runs.

That's called "science."
I've got one of those to post, but you probably won't believe it cause it was sent from an iphone and isn't signed by the operator...

That's okay, juries don't need proof to render a decision just evidence. People can be their own jury based on the information that is out there. I think this thread is as good a place as any to dump the evidence in support of my assertions.

Stay tuned.


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post #9 of 239 (permalink) Old 06-27-2014, 08:28 PM
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post #10 of 239 (permalink) Old 06-28-2014, 12:18 PM
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