Stop Whining! A case study of front-end bearing noise. - Page 2 - Mazda 6 Forums : Mazda 6 Forum / Mazda Atenza Forum
View Poll Results: What is causing front end high-pitched whine?
Constant-velocity (CV) Joint 1 20.00%
Wheel Bearing 0 0%
Tires 1 20.00%
Passenger "Half-shaft" Carrier Bearing 2 40.00%
Transmission Bearing 1 20.00%
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post #11 of 25 (permalink) Old 12-06-2018, 01:33 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jman1200 View Post
So, because you described the noise as a whine and not as a wot, wot, wot or rumble, I believe it is your transmission, although I strongly hope it is not.
A whine usually comes from a well lubricated worn bearing, a dry worn bearing such as the wheel and half shaft would will make a different type of noise.
This is an interesting piece of diagnostic information. I have never made the distinction but it makes sense. I have heard a very similar sound in two different vehicles. One was an older Toyota Corolla AE102 wagon and that was a passenger side output shaft bearing. It too would get louder as more torque was applied (lower numeric gear at same road speed). The other was a carrier bearing on a Ford F150 2wd. The Ford also whined when at speed and would get louder as more torque was applied but it was a bit different in intensity (external hollow drive shaft amplifying sound?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedevil6 View Post
That does make sense, @DrFeelGood how many miles are currently on the wagon (my apologies if I missed this in another post)? Also just saw the video thatís A LOT of play are you positive all of that play is in the rack itself? I know you said you have replaced everything but it is possible to get bad parts, Iíve had my fair share of them. The symptoms you describe are consistent with inner tie rod failure.
You did not miss it, my apologies, the mileage is 179,000mi.
It is indeed a lot of play and unfortunately it is basically all in the rack. It has been suggested that play can be removed with a pinion lash adjustment (see red circle in diagram) but I have not seen a specification for this nor way to adjust it. I feel it is at the end of its service life.



Quote:
Originally Posted by jman1200 View Post
I just got a chance to look at this video. This will explain why your vehicle pulls to a side when accelerating so disregard what I said about the control arms.
Agreed

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Originally Posted by jman1200 View Post
I strongly believe the component circled in the diagram is worn (inner tie rod). It happened to me many years ago on a Mazda 323 I used to own, I took the suspension apart 3 times looking for the clunking noise and it ended being that.
Not sure if you can get it without buying the whole rack (it was available for mine). That part is covered by the dust cover rubber thingy. There are two, one for each side.
Yes, both inner (MOOG Problem Solver EV800029) and outer (MOOG ES800028 (L) and ES800027 (R)) were replaced. The inner joint helped significantly, but not with the noise ultimately.

The Magliotzzi brothers would be proud with the diagnostic thinking that is taking place here on this site (thread) now. You guys are smart

Here is my working diagnosis.
I feel the high pitched whine is coming from either the carrier bearing or the transmission output bearing. I sincerely hope it is the carrier bearing but if I am going to start chasing it down I must be prepared to go all the way through the transmission.

I think @jman1200 is correct with the 'steering pull under acceleration' being related to the steering rack play. I also feel that the metallic clank I hear when hitting sharp bumps/holes while turning (but not straight) is the wheel being pulled back and the rack free-play suddenly being taken up and ending with the sound.

The "catching" I feel while turning to lock and compressing the front suspension is almost certainly due to a failing CV joint as a result of the torn boot.

My big question is am I willing to replace the entire drive-line (transmission, half-shaft and carrier bearing, axles and CV joints, and wheel bearings) and the remainder of the steering system (rack) to remedy problems on a vehicle with 180,000mi. Things to ponder no doubt.

I may do the axle and carrier bearing to see what that does. I'll know, as soon as I feel the bearing, if it is the culprit, and provided the half-shaft is not damaged, I can get away pretty cheap with a bearing and seals. The axle is relatively cheap and easy to do.

I drove the Toyota for over 100,000mi with that bad output bearing and sold it running (with full disclosure) so maybe this one (if it indeed faulty) will go a similar distance...maybe?

I have been living with the steering for years and just driving normally (and avoid the holes) I only occasionally notice it. It is still much better than when the tie-rods and control arms were bad as well.
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post #12 of 25 (permalink) Old 12-06-2018, 01:49 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b1lk1 View Post
My opinion is the pinion bearings inside the transmission as well as other bearings are just showing their age. My car has a very slight whine that only I notice, same symptoms as yours. It is a function of age and mileage, not much can be done other than R&R. If you can hear the noise over the radio then you have problems ASAP. If it is still very subtle and only you seem to hear it then you have time. I plan on sourcing a used transmission for my car this winter/spring and have it R&R'd and keep it on the shelf until it's needed.
That is possible as well however I am sitting behind a JA5A-EL automatic. I can only barely hear it (and couldn't previously, before getting new tires... @bluedevil6 ??) when on brand new road with everything off. I am hyper tuned to bearing noise but it may be louder than I think as a result of being in my 40's now.

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Originally Posted by b1lk1 View Post
There should be 0 play in the steering as well as 0 noise. I would pull the inner tie rod boots and give them a close look.
I double checked the new inner tie-rods and I agree, steering free-play is a little disconcerting (although I did drive a 1976 FJ40 for 10 years and that had a lot of free-play...same thing right?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by b1lk1 View Post
Same with the rack bushings, see if they are still intact. If the rack itself has any play anywhere then it needs to be changed ASAP. Check the sway bar bushings/end links real close too. Those are the things that usually make all the noises.
Check, check and check.


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post #13 of 25 (permalink) Old 12-06-2018, 01:50 PM
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I no longer even look at the mileage my vehicles have, I simply do not want anything newer as I do not want the newer tech. The newest car I will ever own is a 2003-2005 Cadillac CST-V if I ever manage to get one, otherwise I am 50 and have no interest in any newer technology. I'm rebuilding mine until they simply cannot be rebuilt anymore.


I would not worry about the differential noise (the whine) until other people mention it.
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post #14 of 25 (permalink) Old 12-06-2018, 02:20 PM
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@DrFeelGood first, as for the ďis it worth itĒ I believe that the value of anything is determined by its owner, for example I have 160,000 miles on my car and I can honestly say that I have put a lot of work into it, only had it for a year and love it therefore if I were to get in it today and say have the trans burn out a clutch (or something else catastrophic)I would rebuild it because of this.
Secondly if you think there is a chance that the noise is coming from the tires the first thing I would do is a tire rotation simply because itís free if the noise changes then youíre in luck if not then move on to the next cheapest possibility
Thirdly I agree that that steering play is really bad and you should sincerely consider replacing that rack sooner rather than later.



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post #15 of 25 (permalink) Old 12-06-2018, 02:39 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bluedevil6 View Post
@DrFeelGood first, as for the “is it worth it” I believe that the value of anything is determined by its owner, for example I have 160,000 miles on my car and I can honestly say that I have put a lot of work into it, only had it for a year and love it therefore if I were to get in it today and say have the trans burn out a clutch (or something else catastrophic)I would rebuild it because of this.
Secondly if you think there is a chance that the noise is coming from the tires the first thing I would do is a tire rotation simply because it’s free if the noise changes then you’re in luck if not then move on to the next cheapest possibility
Thirdly I agree that that steering play is really bad and you should sincerely consider replacing that rack sooner rather than later.

Yes, I really do enjoy the car and would even more if it were a manual trans [sigh]. @b1lk1 brought up a similar point about value and perception. Since the car is owned (no payments) an A1-Cardone (or similar) rack (1 car payment), wheel bearings, CV shaft and carrier bearing (1 car payment) and a moderate mileage used transmission with warranty (1.5 car payments) or salvage yard trans. (0.5 car payment) still leaves me at making 3-4 car payments this year (provided nothing else catastrophic happens). At the end I have a well knows vehicle with verified service history that I fit in and enjoy driving. I also happen to think this model looks quite sharp.
My philosophy has been to make a half-car payment monthly to cover future costs or replacement in the event of collision, provided I am not actually making car payments that is.


There is one additional consideration and that is a stripped rear subframe bolt. I got about 40ft/lbs of torque on it (the other two are torqued) so the fewer times I have to mess with the sub-frame the better.

(I was using an impact to loosen and when I set the gun down to reposition myself I must have bumped the directional button to "tighten". When it didn't come free I thought it was because I was using my smaller air hose and kept at it a bit too long before verifying...oops.


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post #16 of 25 (permalink) Old 12-06-2018, 03:00 PM
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My 2003 Dodge Durango is a perfect example. It does everything I need and it owes me nothing. It has 175K+ miles on it and it still works very well. It needs driver's side doors, rocker panel and rear hatch. Not only am I doing that I am painting the whole truck. The only way I will stop repairing it is if I have an accident that totals it. It does everything I need and it is fully loaded and a joy to drive.



Value is truly personal and subjective.
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Stop Whining! A case study of front-end bearing noise.

I really like how you broke that down into the equivalent of a car payment thats really smart. As for the rack I'm going to throw this out there for consideration this company on eBay called Detroit Axle remanufactures them and sells them it looks like one for an 04 wagon is about $110 and it says it comes with a lifetime warranty -LINK-. They also sell the half shafts (I think). I should add that I have used their suspension components on more than one vehicle with with good results

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post #18 of 25 (permalink) Old 12-06-2018, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrFeelGood View Post
It is indeed a lot of play and unfortunately it is basically all in the rack. It has been suggested that play can be removed with a pinion lash adjustment (see red circle in diagram) but I have not seen a specification for this nor way to adjust it. I feel it is at the end of its service life.
Have you tried this?



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post #19 of 25 (permalink) Old 12-06-2018, 03:54 PM Thread Starter
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Have you tried this?

[adjusting procedure...pictures removed for brevity]
To be honest I have not. Somehow I missed it when looking through my manual.
My initial thought is if my rack is indeed significantly worn (possibly just loose? with 180,000mi? ...skeptical) would tightening it be advisable? Most of the wear is going to be very near center (since most driving is done in this position). If I reduce the free-play (given that it is indeed not just loose) by adjusting it out, will that not make the tolerance too tight when turning out of the most worn area (like right angle turns?) My concern is this could lead to binding and (unlikely but terrifying) seizure. Given the time and labor to remove the rack combined with the mileage on the components does it not make more sense to replace it with a refurbished product at roughly $200.
If this is indeed the case would replacing the hoses/lines in addition to flushing be advisable?

Thanks a ton @jman1200 for doing the back work on those diagrams and procedure.


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post #20 of 25 (permalink) Old 12-06-2018, 04:19 PM
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No worries, I've seen many of your posts and you always jump in to help others, time to pay it back.

I do not think it will seize as it is spring loaded.
Is 180k miles too much wear? Well, that depends if you do a lot of mountain driving...
Since you need to remove it anyways, see how much effort it takes to manually turn it both ways, adjust it and then get a sense for any extra effort. If you believe it is too tight or play didn't go away, replace it.
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Last edited by jman1200; 12-06-2018 at 04:55 PM.
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