How do you down shift., Question Options

[superskaterxes]

yah heel toe ftl. i just roll my ankle over to rev match. wide ass skate shoes FTW!!!

[Jus10]

what, no gas is already expensive enough, just put it in neutral and stop, if you need to get going again just guess a gear.

What? Gas prices and guessing gears? Really?

[speed6680]

yea i live in cali and gas is $3.11 for 91 not fair, why burn more gas downshifting.

[superskaterxes]

downshifting burns LESS gas because it cuts off your fuel injectors where neutral will basically idle your car.

[Jus10]

I couldn't imagine the tenths of MPG you would be getting by doing what we are saying... FYI, those prices are similar across the country.

downshifting burns LESS gas because it cuts off your fuel injectors where neutral will basically idle your car.

This too!

[Qwik6]

I never heel and toe. No use since when I use the brake to slow down I put it in nuetral. Usually when downshift just hold the gas a little and downshift as you would upshift. Rpm rasies a little bit while the clutch grabs on. Is it me or somedays with this car its like you have to re-learn all over again?

[jd42]

I find that many people double clutch, but I was under the impression that modern cars with manual transmissions have synchros that make the use of double clutching obsolete. And I also find it a little excessive in every day use.

Synchronized transmissions don't require double-clutching, but that doesn't mean the technique is useless. I double-clutch all my down-shifts. This helps keep me in practice, and helps extend the life of the synchromesh. By manually synchronizing the shift (through double-clutching), the need for the synchromesh is eliminated. Shifts can actually be faster, because there is no need to "wait" for the synchromesh to do its work.

Double-clutching is the most beneficial during aggressive gear changes (like 6th->3rd or 5th->2nd) that would require a lot of synchronizer wear to accomplish. Double-clutching is great during auto-crossing when you need to get into 1st gear at 15~20mph without waiting for the synchromesh. Also, when the transmission is cold, manual synchronizing the shifts makes all the down-shifts easier (especially engaging 1st gear while still rolling).

Sometimes I'll wind the engine up in a low gear (say 2nd at 55mph), and then go straight to 6th if I'm going to cruise at that speed. I'll double-clutch that upshift to prevent the wear on the 6th gear synchromesh. Since I'm switching to "cruise mode", getting a fast shift is unimportant.

As far as heel and toeing, I know how helpful it can be on a track, but does anyone really use it on the street.

Heel-toe shifting is really just double-clutching (or single-clutch rev-matching) while simultaneously using the brakes. I use this technique all the time, as I usually want a lower gear anytime I've slowed the car. This is great for engaging 1st while pulling up for a stop sign-- I'm already in 1st and ready to go the instant I come to a stop.

Getting good at heal-toe is also helpful for hill starts if you don't want to use the parking-brake.

[jd42]

Single clutch - never doubled it up. Don't see a reason for it.

My second gear isn't feeling all too hot lately so I try to rev-match it as good as I can..

You just stated a good reason for double-clutching: preserving the synchromesh!

Rev-matching is helpful for the clutch, but doesn't do anything to help out the synchromesh. You need to control the transmission input speed if you want to bypass the synchronizer wear. Try double-clutching your down-shifts into 2nd, and see if that helps. Even if the synchromesh is already worn, double-clutching can help make things smoother.

[bova80]

i can't heel-toe in this car as much as i try, i guess you need really big feet for this because of the offset of the brake and gas pedal. i am pretty quick and taking my foot off the brake and tapping the gas just right to get the perfect downshift.

[priceprince]

i can't heel-toe in this car as much as i try, i guess you need really big feet for this because of the offset of the brake and gas pedal. i am pretty quick and taking my foot off the brake and tapping the gas just right to get the perfect downshift.

I'm pretty sure my feet are too big for double clutching. Size 13s FTL.
I usually will synchro match on a downshift by just blipping the throttle. I used to take it outta gear and coast, but I had the engine die a couple times at 50+ mph while doing that. That was scary and no fun, so I just downshift slowly now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/5.gif)

[djuosnteisn]

Jd, you just convinced me to start double clutching, haha. Sounds fun more than anything.

[FezMS6]

what, no gas is already expensive enough, just put it in neutral and stop, if you need to get going again just guess a gear.

yea i live in cali and gas is $3.11 for 91 not fair, why burn more gas downshifting.

gas economy isn't something this car excels in... get a fuckus, sell the speed, and quit your moaning. plzktnx.

You just stated a good reason for double-clutching: preserving the synchromesh!

Rev-matching is helpful for the clutch, but doesn't do anything to help out the synchromesh. You need to control the transmission input speed if you want to bypass the synchronizer wear. Try double-clutching your down-shifts into 2nd, and see if that helps. Even if the synchromesh is already worn, double-clutching can help make things smoother.

interesting.. I'll have to read up on how to do it properly ... live and learn. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/5.gif)

Jd, you just convinced me to start double clutching, haha. Sounds fun more than anything.

same here ... I'll give it a go for sure. I think I had the theory behind it all wrong so I'll put a n00b sign up and start reading/driving. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/1.gif)

[Flame6]

Synchronized transmissions don't require double-clutching, but that doesn't mean the technique is useless. I double-clutch all my down-shifts. This helps keep me in practice, and helps extend the life of the synchromesh. By manually synchronizing the shift (through double-clutching), the need for the synchromesh is eliminated. Shifts can actually be faster, because there is no need to "wait" for the synchromesh to do its work.

Double-clutching is the most beneficial during aggressive gear changes (like 6th->3rd or 5th->2nd) that would require a lot of synchronizer wear to accomplish. Double-clutching is great during auto-crossing when you need to get into 1st gear at 15~20mph without waiting for the synchromesh. Also, when the transmission is cold, manual synchronizing the shifts makes all the down-shifts easier (especially engaging 1st gear while still rolling).

Sometimes I'll wind the engine up in a low gear (say 2nd at 55mph), and then go straight to 6th if I'm going to cruise at that speed. I'll double-clutch that upshift to prevent the wear on the 6th gear synchromesh. Since I'm switching to "cruise mode", getting a fast shift is unimportant.


Heel-toe shifting is really just double-clutching (or single-clutch rev-matching) while simultaneously using the brakes. I use this technique all the time, as I usually want a lower gear anytime I've slowed the car. This is great for engaging 1st while pulling up for a stop sign-- I'm already in 1st and ready to go the instant I come to a stop.

Getting good at heal-toe is also helpful for hill starts if you don't want to use the parking-brake.

+1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
Double clutching ftw!

[djuosnteisn]

Just watched vid of gary sheehan double clutchin.

He only did in on the down shifts basically.

Does the technique go like this:

- clutch in, shift out of gear.
- clutch out, rev match rpms
- clutch in, shift into gear of choice
- clutch out, speed off happy?

I guess, i'm showing my transmission noobness (which i'm never scared to do), but why is rev matching with clutch out any different than rev matching with clutch in and single clutching? Or more specifically, why is clutch in engine speed different than clutch out neutral engine speed?
I guess i'll have to try it a few times next time i drive my car and just get a feel for it. Seems like getting into first at 15mph is a yet another great practice for street lights.

[FezMS6]

linky to the vid?

[djuosnteisn]

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Heel-To...ching_57431.htm

[schudel5]

Just watched vid of gary sheehan double clutchin.

He only did in on the down shifts basically.

Does the technique go like this:

- clutch in, shift out of gear.
- clutch out, rev match rpms
- clutch in, shift into gear of choice
- clutch out, speed off happy?

This technique is for down shifts because the next lower gear requires a higher rpm. On up shifts the next higher gear has a lower rpm and is typically matched by the time it takes to actually shift once you are off the gas.

The steps above are basically correct except the first one. It should read "clutch in, shift out of gear into neutral" Just to be more specific, but I'm sure it was assumed.

Yeah and guys that run rally's or road courses can do the heel-toe downshifts crazy fast. You can tell when you do it right, the stick slips in like butter.

[djuosnteisn]

Still doesn't answer my question about why single clutch rev match is any different. I know it has to do with the synchros, i just don't know why. I'll just read up on it later tonight i guess.

[Arinzeuno]

Still doesn't answer my question about why single clutch rev match is any different. I know it has to do with the synchros, i just don't know why. I'll just read up on it later tonight i guess.

+1. Aapparently some of you say that double clutching preserves the synchros better than single clutching, which may or may not be true, idk, but aren't synchros there for a reason; to allow the collar and the gear to synchronize speeds before their teeth engage. So if they are there for that reason, shouldn't you use them? On all the manual transmission cars that have been in my family, none have ever had an issue with synchros, so it is my opinion through experience that single clutch rev matched downshifts don't wear the synchros as much as some of you imply.

And another thing, call me old school, but I was taught to never shift into 1st gear at speeds above around 5 mph. I can't even imagine doing it at 15-25mph. With the torque this 2.3 DI engine provides, I would imagine that leaving the transmission in second gear instead of shifting into 1st at speeds that high, would offer quicker acceleration because the eliminated shift time (2 shift times are eliminated; the double clutched shift into 1st, and the 1st to 2nd shift) and keeping in mind how short first gear is in this car, but hey, maybe i'm wrong?

Again just seems like too much work. I can double clutch very well but it's just a nuisance to me because of the added motions. Now heel and toeing I see the advantage of but again do people actually do that on the street? I was talking to my dad about it, and he has been driving manual transmissions since before I was born, and he laughed at the thought of heel and toeing; he said why would you ever hit the accelerator when braking. He said that's how people mess around and crash into walls and blame it on sudden acceleration. I laughed out loud.

Heel-toe shifting is really just double-clutching (or single-clutch rev-matching) while simultaneously using the brakes. I use this technique all the time, as I usually want a lower gear anytime I've slowed the car. This is great for engaging 1st while pulling up for a stop sign-- I'm already in 1st and ready to go the instant I come to a stop.

Getting good at heal-toe is also helpful for hill starts if you don't want to use the parking-brake.

Yes I know what heel-toe is. But I can't even imagine how you would double clutch and simultaneously use the brakes. Single clutch yes, but double clutch no? Again if you enjoy double clutching thats great, I would just like cold hard facts on why its beneficial on today's cars and then maybe I will do it more often, despite the effort. You claim it offers longer life of the synchros, is that it?

[sbspeed]

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Heel-To...ching_57431.htm

Beautiful.

I've tracked the car and think it's setup for heel-toe quiet nicely - once you figure out how to do it smoothly. I never double clutch though - just don't really need to.

Around town, I'll rev match into first but thats about it.