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post #21 of 77 (permalink) Old 01-24-2017, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
It sounds like something that if it did exist it would already be available for more cars.
It does exist. Car companies have been tinkering with this for over two decades. There exists a military diesel that will run on gasoline. Not well, but it will run.

The problems are with combustion stability and that means, in the modern world, emissions. It's not an easy problem to solve or it would have been done a long time ago. But physics says it's not impossible -- just hard.

Hybrid tax credits make that path "easier" and less risky -- until they expire. They have expired for some models already -- the main Prius line being one of them. Those tax credits make the consumer think he's getting a good deal, but in fact he's not -- he's buying a pig in a poke, because the long-term operating cost is quite high. If he gets rid of the car before that hits him, so much to the good for him, but not for the next guy.

My '03 Jetta Diesel wagon can return an honest 50mpg on the highway at reasonable speed. It has posted a lifetime average fuel economy of ~43mpg (!) over more than 200,000 miles. I can count on my fingers the number of tanks that it has consumed and returned under 40mpg. However, it can't meet current emissions. The additional crap required to do so is (1) expensive to install, (2) expensive to maintain and (3) introduces additional high-cost failure possibilities that, out-of-warranty, can destroy the economic value of the vehicle. In addition all that crap harms fuel economy enough that the balance no longer makes sense. Thus I refused to buy a "more modern" diesel. But my '03 will out-haul, out-mileage, radically out-perform and outlast a Prius -- it's got over 200k on the clock now with zero failures, requiring only routine maintenance, and STILL gets 50mpg on the highway at reasonable speeds. It lacks (by a lot!) the "6"'s consideration to aerodynamics.

An HCCI-engined "6" will hit that number. It's not THAT far from where I am now; ~37mpg @ 70mph on flat highway; actual full-tank numbers have hit 41mpg @ 63ish mph. 20% efficiency improvement gets me into the mid-40s @70mph. Back off the throttle a bit or get another 5-10% and you're there.

Find me a hybrid 4-door sedan in the same size class that can return 50mpg on the highway. You can't but Mazda is within spitting distance of doing it if HCCI works. The "3", a smaller car, should be able to hit the mid 50s.

Yeah.

Oh, and like all compression-ignition engines there's no mileage penalty from forced induction for additional power (up to the point the engine physically fails due to overstress) unless you use it. This means that Mazda can produce 300hp+ versions of that engine that STILL return 50mpg on the EPA cycle. No, they won't get that kind of economy with a leaded right foot, but you sure as hell will get a big GRIN in exchange for the loss of fuel economy. How do I know? My '03 has materially more power than it did when originally delivered and yet if you don't use it the penalty exacted for that in fuel economy is a literal ZERO, and I didn't go very far because I didn't want to replace the final drive and clutch. Nonetheless the difference from stock in that car when the boost comes on is NOT subtle.
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Last edited by tickerguy; 01-24-2017 at 10:29 PM.
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post #22 of 77 (permalink) Old 01-25-2017, 01:16 AM
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The problem is that none of these engines will enjoy a major R&D opportunity at this point - especially for stock cars.

Everything transitions to a an engine system that provides more power with less components: Electric.

Everyone is following the one that showed that you can shape consumer perception and make it actual working.

I am not talking about the 30 miles range disasters but the 200-300 miles range cars like the Chevy Bolt that follow suit to Tesla.

Hybrids are basically dead - any car maker still doing research in hybrid technology didn't get the message: Electric car work even when scaled and most modern gas engine can easily compete with the hybrid technologies considering tech VS cost VS energy.

I bet in 3 generations from now you won't even see major gasoline engines in stock cars anymore - those become the rarity. In 5-6 generations they might completely disappear as technology in electric cars evolve and reach the next barriers.

Tesla probably already works on the 1000 miles range car.

Wait until the electric corvette goes into production - the darn thing already broke records with end speeds of 186mph and 700HP with a distance of 140 miles during normal drive.

You always have to consider these factors:

1) less parts -> better for business
2) less maintenance -> better for business
3) less cost -> better for business
4) less complicated technology -> better for business
5) Charge more because it's the new cool thing -> better for business

Remember that initial Tesla's cost 120k+ - after 2years they are at base price of $57k and the Model 3 is introduced with a 35k price tag...

Price is going down .. cost is going down .. that's the only facts u need to consider.

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post #23 of 77 (permalink) Old 01-25-2017, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyandi View Post
The problem is that none of these engines will enjoy a major R&D opportunity at this point - especially for stock cars.

Everything transitions to a an engine system that provides more power with less components: Electric.

Everyone is following the one that showed that you can shape consumer perception and make it actual working.

I am not talking about the 30 miles range disasters but the 200-300 miles range cars like the Chevy Bolt that follow suit to Tesla.

Hybrids are basically dead - any car maker still doing research in hybrid technology didn't get the message: Electric car work even when scaled and most modern gas engine can easily compete with the hybrid technologies considering tech VS cost VS energy.

I bet in 3 generations from now you won't even see major gasoline engines in stock cars anymore - those become the rarity. In 5-6 generations they might completely disappear as technology in electric cars evolve and reach the next barriers.

Tesla probably already works on the 1000 miles range car.

Wait until the electric corvette goes into production - the darn thing already broke records with end speeds of 186mph and 700HP with a distance of 140 miles during normal drive.

You always have to consider these factors:

1) less parts -> better for business
2) less maintenance -> better for business
3) less cost -> better for business
4) less complicated technology -> better for business
5) Charge more because it's the new cool thing -> better for business

Remember that initial Tesla's cost 120k+ - after 2years they are at base price of $57k and the Model 3 is introduced with a 35k price tag...

Price is going down .. cost is going down .. that's the only facts u need to consider.
Except that basically none of that is actually true.

Remove the subsidies and come talk to me about Tesla, cost and everything else related.

HIDING complicated technology from the user doesn't make something less-complex. Drinking promoter's Kool-Aid is a bad idea, all-in.

Tesla is, economically analyzed, a tax farm -- not a car company. Remove the tax farm aspect and the firm would have been bankrupt long ago. That Musk delivers a few cars (compared against scale) doesn't mean he can deliver MILLIONS of cars annually.

Believing that trees grow to the sky doesn't make it true.

The problems are not solvable in the end because they're physics-related.

We don't use liquid hydrocarbons because we're pigs. We use them because nobody has found a way to get 110,000 BTUs in 6lbs of mass and 1 gallon of volume that can be filled in seconds via any other means, and nothing on the horizon threatens to change that.
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post #24 of 77 (permalink) Old 01-25-2017, 11:12 AM
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When it comes to the Electric Vehicle argument, people seem to forget one thing: Multi-Family Dwellings. I don't see property managers providing charging stations to each and every tenant in an apartment complex... or to anyone at all for that matter. That would require trenching and increased electrical service (which may end up with them having to re-pull utility wires if the demand is too much). Forget about running an extension cord, as that is prohibited in just about any lease agreement. So where would apartment and townhouse dwellers go to recharge?

Speaking of, as of 2020 all new home construction in California must be ZNE (Zero Net Energy), meaning they have to be sustainable off-the-grid. It makes me wonder if California factored in EV recharging as part of the ZNE equation. As much as people love to point out that EVs need no fuel, you still need an electrical source (hydroelectric, solar, windpower, etc) to charge the car. There is still a carbon footprint involved.

I'm holding high hopes for HCCI and I still think that Hydrogen is a viable solution once the infrastructure begins to unfold.
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post #25 of 77 (permalink) Old 01-25-2017, 12:01 PM
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Hydrogen is not a viable alternative because of its energy density. It is a great fuel however it's a bitch to compress to usable size for BTU content and because it is a very small molecule it leaks like crazy both during compression and while in storage -- thus the costs to seal against that are extremely high.

Let me further point out that liquid hydrocarbons are infinitely renewable. You can make them from any carbon source -- including CO2 in the air. The Germans perfected this process during WWII. The reason we don't do it today is economic -- it is cheaper to drill and extract than to Fischer-Tropsch out of CO2 and water vapor (for the hydrogen), but nothing prohibits doing the latter other than cost. In fact this process is in commercial use right now in places where they have a lot of coal but no liquids (e.g. parts of South Africa.) There are hybrid models for this process involving nuclear as the energy source (thorium from coal, using process heat to drive conversion and the remaining heat to make electricity) that would provide us with a stable hydrocarbon fuel source along with electrical generation for roughly the next 500 years on known and proved reserves inside the US alone, and that allows for our current organic and immigration population growth.

There is no free lunch. All energy conversions involve loss. The more conversions, the more loss because they are multiplicative. Thermodynamics is not a series of suggestions, it is a body of physical law; those who claim to have violated the laws of thermodynamics are either charlatans or they have re-written everything we know about the physical world. Those who claim it's the latter have the (very heavy) burden of proof.
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post #26 of 77 (permalink) Old 01-25-2017, 03:04 PM Thread Starter
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What do you do for a living tickerguy? If that's not too personal of a question.


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post #27 of 77 (permalink) Old 08-08-2017, 04:43 PM Thread Starter
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Sounds like Mazda was closer to applying this technology to their cars than we had anticipated.


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post #28 of 77 (permalink) Old 08-08-2017, 06:07 PM
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What do you do for a living tickerguy? If that's not too personal of a question.
I'm guessing nothing based on the length of every one of his/her posts.
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post #29 of 77 (permalink) Old 08-09-2017, 09:56 AM Thread Starter
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I'm guessing nothing based on the length of every one of his/her posts.


If that's just a bad joke, whatever......but I consider him one of the more knowledgeable posters on the forum.
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post #30 of 77 (permalink) Old 08-09-2017, 03:33 PM
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I bet he's a petrochemical engineer from Saudi. LMFAO
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